Marriage Conference Session 1

0:01 Hello, everybody. Glad that you're here and we can all be together. What a blessed weekend to gather together like this. It is a blessed time and it is also a challenging time. It's blessed because today and tomorrow you're going to be in the house of God.

0:29 But it's going to be a challenge because tomorrow afternoon you've got the Super Bowl. And then on Monday, you have Valentine's Day, Sweetheart Day. So it's going to be a challenge between savior, Super Bowl and sweetheart. Wonder what you're going to choose. Savior?

1:04 Sweetheart? Super Bowl? Or Super Bowl? Savior? Sweetheart, I don't know.

1:13 So that's why it's a challenging week and now that all of you are here, that means God won out. I'm glad that you're here. Trust that we can have a very blessed time together. Today as we begin off, I'd like to begin by mentioning two ground rules for our time together. And that is when I ask you a question and if you are led to give me an answer, that does not necessarily mean that you are facing that issue in your personal life or in your marriage.

2:08 So feel free to talk. The second ground rule is this, there are no dumb questions. So feel free to raise your hand and I'll give you an opportunity to ask a question and trust we can have a good time together. At the same time, I'm the only one who is allowed to give dumb answers. So let me see how you do.

2:50 Men, husbands here, tell me one thing you wish wives could do to make their husbands happy. Come on, you want me to repeat the question? Remember the ground rules. Tell me one thing that you wish wives could do to make their husbands happy. Yes.

3:16 Be punctual. Okay. What else? Doesn't mean there's an issue in their life. You get what I mean?

3:22 So that's why we can have a good time, know. Feel free to talk. Yeah, come on men, is like icebreaker. You need to relax and, yes, what else? Ladies, questions are coming for you too.

3:41 So you get your chance, okay, to get back if needed. Come on, come on, sir. Smile. Smile. Oh, that's nice.

3:52 You're asking me to smile? Okay, yeah. That's what I said. It's not an issue in your marriage or in your personal life. Okay, any other men?

4:09 Go ahead. Give more positive reinforcement. Give more positive reinforcement. Sometimes I repeat this so that people on Zoom can hear this also, just in case they're not getting it. So we all heard that.

4:24 Okay, wonderful, what else? Come on, Are you scared? Are you think you'll get an elbow or something? Oh, we hear another one, appreciation. More appreciation.

4:49 Okay. What else? Not a problem in your life or in your family life. This is just general. And now I want to turn the tables and ask the ladies, tell me one thing that you wish your husbands could do to make wives happy.

5:21 Okay, let me restate that. Tell me one thing you wish husbands could do to make their wives happy. Go ahead, ladies. Yeah, that's right, be more helpful around the home. I guess I'm just adding more words there.

5:46 Be more helpful generally, okay. What else? Yes. Be patient. Be patient, okay.

5:58 Yes, Be more aware of time, be punctual. Yes. What else? Yes, come on. Isn't that wonderful?

6:28 Yeah. Okay, wonderful. Her husband tells her how beautiful she is and how much he loves her. Amazing, wonderful. Thank you.

7:03 Grace, would you stand up so everybody can see you? Okay. We've been married now forty two years. In three months, it'll be forty three. And we have three children, Jonathan, Joanne, Joshua, two of them are married, four grandchildren, and then Joshua who still to be married.

7:30 So three of them. Been married over these years and I just want to say by the grace of God still growing strong and growing closer to each other, loving each other more. I just want to mention what my approach will be today in relation to this conference. When a conference like this is held in a church, usually the approach is to go straight to the Bible. And that's great because the Bible has got a lot to talk about marriage, conflict, conflict resolution and things like that.

8:17 But my approach today is a little bit different. I want to start with what is called general revelation. What is that? It means to look at some good research, look at some proven methods of help based on surveys of couples including Christians. So we are starting at the human level, human universals, glean what seems to be best.

8:50 Of course, not everything is acceptable, but we choose what best resonates with our practical experience in married life. After that, we'll move to special revelation, which means we will look at the Bible and what the Lord has to say in relation to marriage, conflict in marriage, and so on. So that's my approach today. Just wanted you to be aware because in the initial or the first presentation here, I may not be often coming back to the Bible. Although there are things that the research that I'll be looking at is drawn from looking at couples who are Christians as well.

9:46 Okay, introduction. People get married to be happy, have fun, enjoy life, isn't it? The day of one's marriage is perhaps the most happiest day in their lives. During dating, the desire is to get the other person. They know that there are many similarities, some differences, but that's no big deal.

10:23 The thought is, we can work that out. But the goal is the price before them and that is each other. Love is blind, it is said. And so people take the plunge. For some it works out great even if there is no consideration of the God of the Bible.

10:53 I've taught world religions for several years and I look at people who are married from different religions as well. And they are able to love one another and that's because God made man in His image And the God of the Bible is love. And people are able to love whether they acknowledge the God of the Bible or not. For some, the marriages work out. And if that's the case, then it's beautiful.

11:23 That's great. But for many in such environments, they just live together and live out their lives. But I'm sure you're all aware of the statistics that more than fifty percent of the marriages, both outside and even within the church, end up in divorce. Why? Now that the price is attained, that is each other, what else is there to achieve?

11:58 Mission accomplished! Now begins the long marathon of life's journey together. Likes and dislikes begin to show up or emerge. Couples begin to argue about big things and small things and little things. What was once no big deal then it comes to a big deal.

12:31 And then sometime later, they want a new deal. Sometimes some people divorce for serious reasons. But then people divorce for, what shall I say, irreconcilable differences or I just don't love the person anymore. It's not fun anymore. Things like that.

13:05 Usually the downward spiral starts. When there is a small dent, like in a car, when you get a dent or a little hurt, but when such thing is not attended to and taken care of, the dent leads to disappointment, then it leads to discouragement, then it can lead to depression, then it can lead to distaste or bitterness. Then the couple begins to detest each other. Then that leads to the death of the relationship, sometimes separation, sometimes divorce. But you are here to learn and to rebound back from wherever you are.

14:04 And don't get me wrong, in some instances, medical interventions of various degrees are needed. But for all others, if there is a desire to learn, to try, to change, there is hope. And you know when it comes to marriage and conflicts, there are so many ways in which we can address this. Seminars, therapists, books, videos, and on and on and on it goes. Among all of what you have, I have chosen to speak on only this one area and to focus on some common differences and to see how we can be helped.

14:57 And if I do not address an area that you would have liked me to speak on, well never give up, Don't quit. Keep going on. Let me say this upfront, there is hope in Christ, in Christ alone. And we'll come to that in a little while. Today we are going to talk about eight hidden dreams in marital conflict and how to dream together.

15:36 By understanding these hidden dreams and dreaming together and by the grace of God, our attempt is to lift one's marriage from the ordinary, the mundane, the everyday to one that is sacred, precious. That you can have a little bit of taste of heaven on earth. Now let's talk about, here's something for a little fun. Look at these three individuals. One person said she sold my jet ski.

16:21 The other one in the middle says, mine auctioned off my costumes on eBay. And the third one says, if ever I get hold of her lawyer. Look at this one. My parents will be here any minute. The least you can do is to shave.

17:28 So what are these hidden dreams? One author says, Dreams are mental pictures of how we think our marriages and spouse are supposed to look and feel and behave. Okay? Mental pictures of how we think our marriages and our spouse are supposed to look, feel and behave. Another researcher, Scott Stanley, them, these dreams, unconscious longings or hidden issues.

18:18 And he says hidden issues are the deeper fundamental issues that usually lie underneath the arguments about everything. Lying underneath these unfulfilled longings they produce fear, sadness, resentment and erode and destroy a marriage. So what's the role of conflict? Conflict exposes the underlying dreams. And in conflict, if the focus is on each other and what each other said, then the conflict continues.

19:18 If the focus is on winning the argument, then the conflict continues. But if we study and analyze the conflict, then the underlying dreams are identified and we can understand each other better and change and work out a resolution or reconciliation. And that's our goal today. Socrates once said, By all means, marry. If you get a good spouse, twice happy you will be.

19:58 If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher. There are many bad philosophers who have bitter experience in their marriage, okay? And today, we want to help and try to see how best we can understand each other so that together as couples, we can grow and have a marriage that is pleasing to God. What is the usual Christian approach? Argument and conflict is bad, it's sinful.

20:56 Therefore let's bury it, let's not talk about it, Let's tiptoe around the issue. And it's not always that you have here a message about how to resolve a marital conflict in the context of the church. Very often all people want is peace. Well, works for some, But if we listen carefully and work on it, I think we can do much better. Here's another way in which we can think about conflict or the scenario.

21:53 So here, the picture to your left, and it's based on what someone said. He said, conflict is the art of disagreeing while holding hands. So the next time you have a disagreement, why don't you hold hands and then look at each other in the face and then talk? Wouldn't that be nice? Conflict is the art of disagreement while holding hands.

22:30 Look at the other scenario. You see a little kid on a bicycle with training wheels, and one's the mother and the other is the dad, and they have a conflict. The mom says you must wear a helmet. If he's going out of the house, he needs to wear a helmet. No bike ride, no helmet, no bike ride.

23:04 But the husband comes along and says, Oh you're depriving him of air in the hair. He is deprived of the thrills of life. Oh he can get a spill. But he learned through that And you need to take some risks and that's how you become mature next time not to do that and all of that. And so the argument goes.

23:37 Both of them are right. When one of them is wrong, then it's quite possible to, let's say, talk about it and say one person who's wrong can say, yes, I was wrong, I'm sorry, and get over it. But what if both people are right and you don't want to give up easily? And we find that leads to a lot of conflict and difficulties in marriage down the line. Now after researching hundreds of couples and surveying more than a thousand people, Tim and Joy Downs wrote a book in 2010 and it's called One of Us Must Be Crazy.

24:30 And I'm pretty sure it's you. And they discovered that there were recurring areas of conflict in marriage. And then they ask the question, why are these same issues showing up again and again? Their answer: Because it's not just a matter of opinion but it's a matter of dreams and dreams die hard. I don't know if you ever thought about this, that when you get married, you're not just marrying the person, but also the person's history.

25:19 Quite a bit of that person's history rubs off on that person. It's there. That's how dreams develop. It's developed from family background, childhood experiences, genes of built in temperament, culture, religion, unstable home, peers, personal education, experiences and so on. And from analyzing all these various surveys that they sent out they came up with seven hidden dreams.

26:00 And as I looked at all of that, said, there are more that can be added. But I think there's one other crucial area that also needs to be talked about. So I added one more. And thus we have eight hidden dreams or unconscious longings in all or most couples. Maybe more, but we just don't have time to look at all of them.

27:03 To carry your Bible and tracks, to give out as you walk wherever you go. So I thought let me bring this with me today. But inside here this provides a cover for my acronym. Okay? And it's a real football, not the NFL kind of football.

27:27 And generally football is white or yellow. This one's red, it's good for talk on marriage and Valentine's Day and things like that, red color ball. So the acronym that I developed is called SOCCR LS. You don't have to spell soccer, do you? LS, you can say living sport, luxury sport, like cars, things like that.

28:04 Soccer LS. So this is what it stands for. S stands for security. O stands for order. I'll show you the next slide.

28:18 There it is, so if you're writing it, it's all there. Okay? C stands for caring. The second C stands for connection. E stands for entertaining.

28:35 R stands for responsibility. L stands for loyalty. And the one I added, sexuality. Eight, different aspects, unconscious issues, dreams that people have. So I 'm using this mnemonic device so that after this conference is over, when you go home, say, soccer LS, what did it stand for?

29:17 I don't want you to forget this and say, there were too many points, two points I could remember. Eight, that's too many. But soccer? Yes, so. Okay?

29:33 S stands for security. O stands for order. C stands for caring. C stands for connection. E stands for entertaining.

29:48 R stands for responsibility. L stands for loyalty. And finally, S stands for sexuality. So we're gonna look at each one of these items and we'll go through rather quickly. And I hope you will follow through with me and we'll be able to look at these things quickly.

30:17 So about security. When we look at security, the key question that people have for whom this is an unconscious dream is what if There are two components to the whole matter of security and the two components are protection and provision. What's protection for? It's because they are concerned about safety, stability in marriage and comfort. And what about provision?

31:21 It's because they feel the need to save, to collect, to accumulate. Remember these dreams can come from childhood experiences, economic hardships, so many other things, unstable home. So there is at the fundamental level unconscious dream, hidden dream to have security and as part of that, if there is safety, stability and comfort just like any parent would have in the home then they are more at ease. But if we will find that if any one of those things are threatened, you will find that it leads to argument and sometimes harsh things are said as the arguments get heated up. Very often it's manifested as an aversion to risk and wastefulness.

32:40 So let's say, I don't know, your spouse, let's put it like that. I don't know who's the big spender in your house. So if the spouse went and bought something on the internet, isn't it? And when the thing arrives or when you see the bill, you'll say, what's this weightfulness for? Why did you spend all this money?

33:05 I could have got something far less than what you paid for it. Things like that. Another occasion's aversion to take risk. Let's say you know you're working in an office and they give you a free ride to go to China and you come home and say, Hey, I got this opportunity to go to China and I signed up. And then you come home and the other spouse at home says, What?

33:36 Going to China? Don't you know that there is the pandemic there? You taken... We'll take care of the children and a whole bunch of things come up. Why?

33:49 Because there's an aversion to risk. But what's the underlying issue? Security. Anything that threatens the security. Yes, and the component of protection and provision.

34:08 We find that there will be resistance to that and it can be either spouse. But if you read and analyze more, you will find that the scales are tipped more towards the wife because when childbirth happens, she also wants to make sure that the children are protected, taken care of, have a comfortable home and many of the things associated with that. But it can be either spouse that has this great desire, unconscious dream of security. What's the snare? The snare or when somebody goes overboard on security and that's how I phrased it as snare, we find that freedom is stifled.

35:07 There is a tendency to hoard. You know, here's what you see very often in many homes. You get what I mean? The house is full of stuff and then the garage is full of stuff and the cars are parked outside. Isn't it?

35:22 The tendency to hoard. Why? You don't want to throw away things. Why? What if we need it a little bit later?

35:31 Where does that come from? This unconscious dream of what? Security, stability, comfort. Just in case, what if we need it? It's there at the bottom in their minds.

35:50 And because of that, you know what happens? They fail to enjoy life today. How can this be addressed? Here's what it is. Whenever there is such an issue, talk about security before risk.

36:12 So if I push on the earlier example of, oh, I got this opportunity to go to China and then before you announce that, what if you would say, yes, I got a great opportunity to go to some place. But I just thought about it a little bit and we are going to a place where we are far away from any risk. And I've also thought about, well, how we can take care of children during that time and how finances could also be arranged so that we could go and come back and have a good time. And then you say, you know where the place is? Tell me, tell me, tell me, where's the place?

36:57 China. Okay, you know, when you take that approach, the approach of what? Talking about security before risk or provision before spending. Suppose you're spending 500 or 1,000 or 5,000, I don't know what, but you're thinking, yeah, we think we need that. But at the same time, remember, these are the things that we've already budgeted, we've already taken care of, we've seen how this is such an important need and things like that.

37:33 When those things are spoken about, we find it leads to less tension, stress in the whole relationship. So here's that in a nutshell, the underlying dream, unconscious longing in certain individuals for security and because of which very often it leads to so much argument. And then in the process of conversation leads to hurts and like I said earlier, disappointments, discouragement, when you're discouraged you withdraw from each other. And then depression and then bitterness or distaste and then detest. Some people say when they go to counselors, marriage counselors offices and they begin to express their hatred for each other.

38:35 It is unimaginable the things that they say to each other in a counselor's office. And then death of the relationship, ending up in divorce, things like that. But when it's about winning the argument and it's talking things to each other, when things were at that little hurt stage, it was not attended to, we see how things go, take this downward spiral. So that's number one, security. Let's look at the second one, order.

39:40 I don't know if it's like that in your house. They need to have a time for household activities and also to schedule time in the day for work, for hobbies, for shopping, even for physical relationships. A plan for everything. Some people they have to do lists that are extensive and sometimes with time marked on the side as well. They need to work to a structure and to keep to that structure.

40:18 And if that structure is changed, oh man, it leads to so much of conflict and difficulty. And then the second aspect of order is control. They want to stay in control of the house, of whatever things that are before them. You know, sometimes you see a bumper sticker, isn't it? Which is very much symptomatic of control and the bumper sticker is God is my co pilot.

40:53 I don't know where they got that from. That means what? I'm the pilot, the Lord is only beside me. I'm in control, Lord. You just help me along the way.

41:01 You get what I mean? Yeah. How is this manifested as? Sometimes it is manifested as disorganization. When there's no structure things are so disorganized, items are lost in the home and because of that there is so much of disorientation.

41:33 You know one spouse, mostly the husband, trying to assemble an item without looking at the manual and no forethought about any plans in relation to most things that are done. And it drives one person crazy. And that's why the author gave the title, One of Us Must Be Crazy, isn't it? I know that back at Moody, one of my faculty members, if you go to his office, everything is organized, filed, the office is clean, so great. My office is okay, but it's the home that's the problem.

42:28 I don't like to sit at my work table, I like to sit at the dining table and then I like everything spread out in front of me. It's not a problem until somebody says we are coming over. I tell Grace, hey don't touch anything, leave everything there. I know where I've placed everything, every bill, everything, I know where it is. If you move it then it takes me a long time to put it back into place.

43:00 So you know what's the solution I come up with? Just spread a bedsheet on top of that. Hopefully one day I'll also get organized. I don't know if that's because I'm dealing with too many things, I don't know. But for those you see who are, what shall I say, focused on order, it tends to drive them crazy.

43:30 How can I live with so much disorganization and all things all around the house? Things like that. What's the snare? Sometimes control can become very obsessive. People can become very inflexible, impatient and there is also a perfectionist streak that goes on.

43:55 How can it be addressed? It's not easy. But here's a simple suggestion: focus on critical areas and not every desirable area. In all matters of control and order, there are some areas that are critical. Choose your battles, they would say at home and everywhere.

44:23 Choose your battles. You don't have to be in control of everything. In my home, I give so many aspects to my wife. Oh, take care of the children, their admission, sister's meeting, many other things. You do it, computer.

44:39 I'm focused on teaching at Moody and things on the assembly and all of that. So we have divided our responsibilities and things going okay. But you know what? Just like in most couples, we also have our moments of intense fellowship as we would like to call it. Also focus on critical areas, not every desired area.

45:12 And then also if you are so much given to planning everything, have a time within the plan where you can be disorganized, meaning nothing to do, no specific plan between 04:00 and 07:00. Feel free to do whatever you want. When you do something like that, then this helps in relation to people who want structure and order, structure and control. Primarily order is there deep in their subconscious longing. Probably because they saw that at some point in their life and said this is maddening.

46:00 In my life, when it comes to my family life, I'm not going to have that anymore. And you did not realize that when you were dating and now that you're married and things like that. And after some time, these things come to the forefront and there you are. Let's move to the third aspect. The third aspect is caring, remember?

46:46 Awareness of things in relation to the physical person or could be environment, emotional alertness to spouse and others. I'll explain that in a moment. Initiative is doing something about it and if someone has no initiative, it's like faith without works, it's dead. You can be aware but you don't do anything about it. And it is manifested as, as we read here, not watchful over the flock, taking things for granted about the spouse and also being uncaring about others round about you.

47:48 This can be about children, uncaring about others, about neighbors, about extended family where you're not caring about any of those things. So what is awareness? Just so that you'll get a grasp of that. You know, when you observe your spouse or something that was done around the home, Sometimes the spouse would have tried to do some makeup and as husbands they come to the house, they don't notice that or they do something around the house and that's never noticed. There's very little awareness.

48:37 And sometimes, yes, there's an awareness of oh, something has broken down, Something's not working. It needs to be fixed. There's an awareness but then what? No initiative to do anything about it. Generally spouses, husbands and wives, they are patient, they wait, wait, wait, wait.

49:01 Somebody said patience earlier. Wait, but there's no initiative, it doesn't get done until the other spouse just piles on the pressure and then something hurtful is said and then that leads to an argument and even if the thing is done later on, there's no happiness. It leads to unfulfilled marriage situation. So remember, caring has got to do with awareness. When you come into the home or when you're walking through life, you need to have your radar all around you.

49:40 What's happening? When you walk into the church, awareness. And then when you see something is not what should be, awareness of the flock. Then what do you do? You do something about it.

49:55 And when nothing is done, those with this unconscious underlying desire for caring, you know what they feel? I'm not cared for. When was the last time my spouse said something about how I can improve myself or how I can show myself better to others and also personally. So we find this is an issue amongst many couples. As my time is fleeting by, I just wanna focus on the next aspect and that is connection, SOCC, connection.

50:44 Here under connection, there are two things again, but one has got to do with communication and the other in relation to decision making. I'm going to go a little fast here. In relation to communication, there are three types of communications. One is linear, that means direct. The other is circular, that means you don't come to the point, you go round and round, beat the bush and finally you may say what you have to say.

51:16 Then there is an emotional communication where somebody, when they want to express themselves, they cry. They are very emotional. They become very passionate. Or the other side is cognitive. That means they are thinking mental, analyzing things as a way of communication.

51:36 And then the third one is didactic. That means preaching or interactive, where yes, say things and then you get a response back as well. How is it manifested as? Well, often a sharp, long winded, you know, when you're linear, you can be sharp. When you're circular, you can be long winded.

52:06 When you are cognitive, stone hearted. When you are emotional, passionate. When it is didactic, it can be impolite. And when it is interactive, well you don't give the person the opportunity to talk. Before the person finishes, you talk.

52:30 What's the snare? When communication is like this, it becomes boring, distracted, impulsive, passionate, rigid, rude. How can this be addressed? Sometimes we need to say, Okay, what are we talking about here? Okay, so here's the summary of what was said.

52:58 Or sometimes it's good to recognize the emotions and tell both what you think and what you feel. And this is what I need to do now, break the lecture and ask questions. I'll come to that. Moving on, so that's about under communication or connection communication. Also in relation to decision making, there are different decision making styles.

53:32 One is intuitive, that means gut feeling. They make decisions based on gut feeling but then there are others who make decisions based on evidence or evidential. They do research and then they come to a decision on things and sometimes some are very decisive, others in terms of their decision is always tentative. For some others it's final, For some others it's open ended. That's why our businesses have learned that and that's why they say, yeah, you can buy this now but we'll give you thirty days.

54:20 And if you want to return it, well, within seven days or thirty days something because they know that many people are tentative in their decision making. They are open ended and that means they can change their decision within a certain period of time without loss so that they'll still get the customer. How can this be addressed? It can be addressed by agreeing together on a deadline. Concerning this decision, we'll give it, we make a decision now and then we'll give it thirty days for prayer or thought and then decide whether to keep it or return it or something.

55:09 And allow room for both intuition, the gut feeling and also for evidence. And of course agree on a review period. So remember, under connection there are these two aspects: different communication styles and different decision making styles. And very often when it comes to these areas where one person differs from the other person, it drives the other person crazy. And this can happen within Christian marriage as well.

55:43 So let's not think, oh man, this is only for non believers or something like that. This happens and sometimes in the midst of conversations when hurtful things are said, we find that it can be very devastating. Now next, E, entertaining. What does entertaining stand for? There are two things here again.

56:59 When will this end? This person started talking to her mother or his mother or whatever and now it's still going on, it's two hours. So that's sociableness and sometimes this can be such an irritant to the other party. And then it's also energy level. That means what?

57:32 Some people they gain energy by being sociable. For other people what? They need rest and privacy. Very often men go to office. Remember we can say that in relation to communication as well.

57:49 Research has shown that a man has about 12,000 words in a day. Have you heard that? Probably. A woman has about 25,000 words in a day. So at the end of the day, when he comes back, he wants to rest.

58:09 He wants to watch the news, not get into anything. But the lady has 12,000 more words. She wants to talk, talk, talk. And the other person is looking for rest, for quiet, for peace. So under all these items, here it is.

58:38 It is manifested as one person being something what is called a party animal. And sometimes it can be just looking at television and video games and things like that. What's the snare? Superficial trends, h tasks, ignore spouse and lacks individual discipline. How can it be addressed by?

59:02 Allow your partner to recharge. Enlarge your boundaries. In other words, if you are a person who says introvert, I just want to have my personal time, maybe you can enlarge your boundary by one person at a time. I'll just look at one more item and then we'll stop and then I'll pick up L and S second session and then we will look at how we can dream together. And I think that's very, very important and critical.

59:41 So one other item, responsibility. The responsibility, this aspect, the key word here is ought. I ought to do this. It's a duty to follow unwritten laws, customs, fashions and expectations of others. This also has two components: obligations and expectations.

60:14 Obligation is the inner sense of oughtness, right thing to do. Expectations is what will people think, what's the best thing to do. How is it often manifested as? Great care is taken of what others think of both customs, fashion and expectations. Let's say you come to church dressed in a certain way.

60:55 Immediately the thought, what do you think others will think? Now you need to change this. And we find very often this can be very very difficult when it comes to relationship between spouses in a marriage. So what's the snare? They are ruled by the opinions of others and they act out of obligation to others.

61:30 How can it be addressed? Tell your mate that they are not obeying a rule but they are doing something because you feel bad about it. Think about pleasing your mate, but not obeying a rule. So we'll end there and pick it up after our break time. We will consider loyalty and sexuality later and also then, as I said earlier, talk about how to dream together so that we can have a marriage.