Shepherding - Recognition 03 - — Proverbs 3

0:00 Our father, we wanna just come and and be in your presence and thank you for the wonderful, work of Jesus Christ. Father, so many times we we think of that in terms of of him saving us from our sins and being in a position of torture and torment while our sins were being laid upon him. And and we do we do... We're overwhelmed by that specific of his sacrifice. But, father, there's also this whole sort of meta narrative where the Lord Jesus steps in and he undoes what sin has done.

0:40 He reestablishes the curse being reversed. He takes a chaotic order that's ravaged by sin and Satan, and he makes all things new. He'll put him... He'll have himself rightfully claim the title deed of the world, and he'll have himself rightfully sit on the throne. Although he didn't have to do that.

1:01 He didn't have to show he had the credentials or the resume or or the expertise as it were. He is God, and he could rightfully assume it, but he went further and he showed and displayed his perfection. And then, father, he defeated Satan who was trying to instigate him to sin, who was trying to get him to fall like Adam fell. And the Lord Jesus showed again his pristine character and sinlessness. That must have flown right in the face of Satan, for he was everything opposite of what of what he was...

1:40 Or who he was challenging. No doubt, father, and Lucifer was on one day also sinless, and yet he he fell. Father, we just thank you that he corrected... The Lord Jesus corrected the whole metanarrative, the whole storyline, and he made it right. And now we come to this little church and our little lives, and and we can see the bigger picture of how our Christ wants us to to be reestablished as an appropriate image bearer of the glory of God, one that can reflect your glory without tarnished or without dimming.

2:17 And that's why we wanna pray for the Westlake Christian Fellowship, that you would allow them to follow this this this pattern, this idea, this this this strategy, and you would bless them with your wisdom from above. You would bless them with their under... With your understanding and counsel. You'd bless them with your wisdom. You'd give them each a heart to want to obey you no matter what.

2:42 You would give them each a heart to look to you, to expect you, to show them. You'd give each give each a heart increased faith as they trust you in this process of what can seem like uncertainty. And I pray, father, you would intervene on their behalf. In Jesus' name. Amen.

3:01 Amen.

3:02 Well, I have something prepared, but I think we were maybe wanting to to have a little discussion. Did I understand that correctly, Andy?

3:19 Well, we we certainly have been talking about just where we are in in steps moving forward. So any... Anything regard to the teaching session or if we... If you had any other insight there, yeah, that that would be that would be great. We'd be open to that.

3:43 Okay. Well, let's just maybe, instead of rush forward for a moment and and and talk about where you're at and maybe what the Lord would have you do next. So as I understand where you're at as an assembly of meeting several times, coming down, culminating in the last three months, And really, it seems as if, the two elders currently in place have in... Independently perhaps, I I think, come to conclusion that maybe this is something they need to to step back from. And I I think both of those men expressed that, got the impression that both of those men would like to to see the Lord put in place other elders and sort of a smooth exchange as it were.

4:36 And and I think that's a hope and a prayer that that the brothers have there. Do I understand this this this correctly?

4:46 Yes.

4:47 Okay. Yeah. And and so as you look at it, you're you're look... How do we go from, you know, the current two elders to them stepping back and the other stepping forward. And so as I see it, there are probably about three or four different pieces to this puzzle that we ought to talk...

5:11 Address and name. And I would say that the first piece of the puzzle is, the two brothers, Ray and Roger, at least that it is our intention to step back. And as I understand it, you've done that with a very gracious, kind letter and and it and it... And I I was allowed to read that, and it certainly sounds as if there's no malice or upsetness or anything that that would indicate an ill motive. It sounded very sincere, and, of course, I I think that's what you wanna have when you're in this position.

5:54 So the second piece of the puzzle is, well, how do we... We've established that that needs... That that should happen. It seems like we have peace before God about that. But what about, you know, the other part of the baton passing where the other hand has to step forward.

6:59 In these different levels, the spirit of God has an opportunity to collectively and independently shape your hearts to hear his voice. And as you know, with our experience and and I think according to the word of God, as you know, our desires begin to match his desires. And so that's why the exercise of prayer is so important because we want to see the the right individuals recognized at the right time by the leading of the spirit. And as we make our... When we acknowledge him in all our ways, he directs our paths.

7:36 That's the proverb. And I think he does that by sort of systematically and quietly bringing each individual heart along his path or his passion. And so that's why I say that prayer has gotta be the number one priority. Now when I say prayer number one priority, you should understand, I I don't mean prayer like, okay, God, just show us who it is and we'll do it. I mean that we are sitting before God and we're saying, now, Lord, your assembly is here and we're waiting upon you.

8:13 And as we wait upon you, we we want you to know we're committed to this. We're committed to hearing your voice. And we're not trying to be rebellious at all, but we also saw that Jacob would wrestle with you all night until you blessed him, and we are prepared to do that. We are prepared to to take as long as it takes so that you might communicate to us your blessing. Now I know that sounds a little bit dramatic, but I can guarantee that kind of passion and commitment seems to resonate with God's heart.

8:48 You can verify that by the parables he talked about in prayer, the persistence of the widow and the persistence of the neighbor. And so I I I I strongly suggest you cultivate that. And and when I say individually, I mean every saint in their closet at home. And when I say in small groups that you have special groups meet to pray. The women meet to pray once, twice, three times a week.

9:13 The men meet to pray by Zoom once, twice, three times a week. The assembly meets to pray. You call a special assembly meetings to pray on non scheduled days of prayer meeting. I think when you do that, when you have that level of tenacity and commitment, the Lord God just melts to want to come to your assistance and and guidance. So I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I have found that that is the number one missing agreement, ingredient when we talk about the process that you're looking at.

9:50 Now the second thing about seeing how to to recognize the next group is is definitely meeting together. And so I don't know how you have chosen or decided this, but clearly, they have to be spiritually minded men. Clearly so. Clearly, they need to have a passion, a heart for the work of the shepherd. I didn't say they have to be gifted as a shepherd, but just like I, I'm not an evangelist, but I do the work of the evangelist.

10:20 And so I think it's important to have the idea of those who have an... Sympathy, an empathy for the work of the shepherd. And then... And those men come together to pray. Now, the women are not inactive.

10:36 The women are very exercised. In fact, I would tell you, ladies, that you you need to meet more often to pray for the brothers in this. Your prayers are vital in in this regard. And what... And you're asking the Lord to take Satan away from the discussions.

10:56 You're asking the Lord to remove flesh from all persons involved. You're asking the Lord that when when you... When he states his mind and gives his direction, that the brothers in Christ will will listen the first time and and immediately soften and yield themselves to the leading of the spirit. That's what you're praying for. I I strongly urge that that you almost do twice as much as when the men meet.

11:23 You are the prayer... You are the protectors of the integrity of that meeting. Brothers, when you get together, you first... You pray and you cry out to God. Set your heart straight.

11:33 Don't discuss a thing. Just pray. Ask the Lord to prepare yourselves. We want no flesh. We want no personal agenda.

11:40 Give us your mind, o God. And if all you do for that hour that you get together is pray, that is a very successful meeting. Come back next week and meet again. And and that pattern we did, we decided we would just pray right off the bat. And if all we did that week was pray, we think we accomplished great things.

12:00 Now as you go forward, you'll have these discussions and you'll say, well, you know, I've been praying about this and and clearly, we still have to to talk through some of the issues that are before us. And so let's let's let's engage on this level so we can learn each other. Now you've been doing that, so you've made a lot of ground. And and and as you go, some like like, for example, John might say, I don't I don't know if I'm really suited for this work. I'm happy to sit in, but do you brothers think I should step back right now and wait until the process is over?

12:37 You know, ask those questions. Go ahead and get them on the table. And that way, the the group sort of gets gets refined a little bit. As you're doing that, you're constantly going to the assembly in the public prayer meeting, and you're saying, no, we, you know, we brothers here are meeting, and certainly if the Lord has set this on someone's heart and we haven't recognized it, please come and tell us so that we can all pray together. Now as you do that, take the difficulties that you still have to manage, the marriage problems, the whatever unity issues, and and and you say, no.

13:15 What what does the scripture say about this problem? And take that as an opportunity for all of you sort of elders in waiting, if you will, to to look at the scriptures together over whatever problem the Lord gives you. And I think the Lord will allow you to have a problem or two because he will use that to prove you, to prove you, to test you, and that's very fine. And you'll find through those problems that it becomes clear. This brother has a good heart, but he's not ready.

13:48 And those brothers that are in that position, it's not a loss. The the the loss is trying to force something when it's not time. So be be willing to step back and let the Lord change you and then come back on in his timing. And for those of you who it is time to be an elder, it's not a loss to say, I think God is setting me on this. This is on my heart, but I...

14:12 I'm in fear and trepidation. That's not a loss either. That's what you should do. All that happens through dealing with problems, looking at the scriptures, analyzing how we think about it, and and just coming to a a conclusion about a matter. That is a very key step in terms of proving and identifying.

14:32 Now along this way, you will you will see things in people's lives, And it's a very hard discussion, but you'll have to talk about them in the brother... In those men that are meeting, sort of elders in waiting. And and when you do, everyone needs to to acknowledge, usually every meeting, that I'm not going to be defensive and I'm not going to react. If my... If Andy, for example, wants to bring up something in my own life that he has a question about, I'm going to agree personally to listen to Andy and take it before the lord.

15:11 I won't respond that night. I'll just take it before the lord and ask the lord what he sees in my life. And is that disqualifying me? Is that suspending me from consideration? And that's how you wanna handle this so that there can be a spontaneous and sort of auto thinning of the of the group.

15:32 The lord is is... You're gonna deal with it in your own heart and you say, wow. I didn't know I was like that. It's it's not what Andy said. It's much worse than that, and my heart is way too selfish.

15:43 I I I can't I can't be that kind of elder. You bring that back to the group and I say, Andy, you know, I've prayed about what you said and and, you know, I I I appreciate it, but it was just worse than what you said. I I'm... I... The Lord revealed to me so many more things.

15:58 And I I believe, brothers, that might disqualify me. That might set me aside for a season. Do you see the same thing? That kind of open sort of frank discussion, which I'm pretty sure you're headed towards or have had already, that's gonna be vital in this phase. Now...

16:39 And, for example, three weeks later, say, Andy, you know, you mentioned the other day that you really thought that this was under the sovereign rule of God and you said it in such a way that it made me wonder, what is your view on sovereignty of God? How do you see that? And so we're willing to take up these new rabbit trails. Some some groups will have a systematic way. How do we feel about, head covering?

17:05 How do we feel about, women's role? How do we feel about men's role? And and those discussions, you'll wanna have some strategic talks. For example, in one month, brothers, we're gonna meet and let's ask the Lord to give us the sort of the vision mission of the local church. And so I, we're gonna all read through the whole New Testament in thirty days and we're gonna ask the question, what is the vision mission for this, Westlake Christian Fellowship?

17:38 Now that was an exercise of mine personally. I did that for our assembly and I went through the scriptures very carefully over a six month window. And I I came across two passages that really shaped our thinking, my thinking, and then I introduced it to the other brothers. And and it's it's summed up in a cliche that goes like this. Souls saved, souls discipled so that more souls are sent out so that more souls are saved and discipled.

18:04 And and that comes out of Ephesians chapter two and Colossians chapter one. And that so helped us set sort of what we... What the world or the seminary calls your philosophy of ministry, but that helped us desperately. And if you say to to each other, well, as we've talked about the church here, quite honestly, I I don't I don't know what our problems are. I don't...

18:31 I can't really label them well. Our philosophy of ministry was a little bit askew. We've got that fixed. Then you just take some time, and this is another suggestion, where all of you sort of elders in waiting, you say, let's all plan to minister on the seven shirt letters to the churches. And there's seven or...

18:51 Seven of us or eight of us. Let's assign a chapter and we'll give ministry on that. Each of us give ministry on that and let the lord kind of write us his own letter out of those letters he's given, and let the lord direct us. See, these are three major activities that force... I don't wanna say it that way.

19:12 That is good in... Environment to help recognition of elders, to see how the spirit of God is leading you, to see how he's training and shaping each man, and to to be able to to confirm it one to another. So if I'm in the group, I might say to Andy Morris. I said, you know, Andy, I I heard your ministry last Sunday. And, you know, I I have to say you brought something to the table that is is right on for this assembly, and I never thought about it.

19:43 And and so tell me more. How how are you thinking about that? What what brought you to that conclusion? Are you are you are you seeing something alone with God or did you read something? Give us insight.

19:56 And so I kinda wanna know how you did your math, you know, and and be able to to to see your processes. If you said, well, you know, I I was I I was just listening to J Vernon McGee. Well, okay. Great. I'm glad you were doing that, but but did you have something from the Lord himself?

20:12 You see, that's what we're looking for. And so those kinds of discussions, that sounds like a rabbit trail, but it's a very good rabbit trail as you talk about doing collective concentrated ministry on a specific topic as a group. Alright? So that... So that's three things.

20:30 So we're talking about prayer. We we talked about dealing with problems and going to the scriptures and hearing how we think about it. Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe it's we need to formulate our doctrinal statement on something. Maybe we need to refine our doctrinal statement or...

20:46 And then finally, maybe collective group teaching on a passage that we we can see how each other handles the word of God, not just on the sixty minutes on Sunday, but your preparation, your analysis, your thinking skills. I think that's important. Those are three practical areas that you can do as as elders in waiting, so to speak. All the time, you've got Roger and Ray sort of serving as as observers to this and saying, no. I can see what you're saying.

21:17 Maybe you don't realize it, but you've you've got a little bit of gift here in this area of discernment. Now that would be important for the oversight. So allow those recognized elements of gift to come to the surface and then you'll see, wow, we need all... We need at least these five brothers because that gives us a well rounded miniature of the body of Christ. We have complementary gifting and that...

21:44 That's a fourth thing to talk about, the complementary gifting of each other in the the oversight. If you say, well, as we prayed about the right gifting set for the oversight, we realize we're really deficient. And this particular gift, for example, it might be teaching. And you say, well, let's ask God to give us a shepherd who teaches or maybe a teacher that isn't a shepherd but we could use to teach the assembly. And so now you're beginning to see how a saint...

22:16 How one of you brothers is viewing the body and looking for their needs to meet them. Alright? So that's going on. Alright? That's all going on.

22:25 The fifth thing you should collectively be doing is you should go ahead and and visit over about a year to two years every every family unit in the assembly and go two by twos. So divide up the assembly for the next year and say, these six months or these twelve months, you two will visit a through h, and you two will visit I through s, and the... And you two will visit the last, and and about a third of the way through, we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll go to the group we didn't have and we'll do... And just visit everybody. And when you go, you wanna go visit and ask the kind of a scripted question, standard questions.

23:12 And these standard questions would be, for example, number one. So this is, like, part number five to what you should be doing, and and this would be visitation. And this visitation, in this first round of visits for about a year, you wanna ask them the following things. We have been... You wanna say, we have been praying for you, which by the way is a subject matter of what you pray about.

23:36 You get a list of all the folks in the assembly. You have personal notes on each person. And as you pray through them each week, the whole chapel, that needless grows. And I keep one. My fellow elders keep one for themselves.

23:51 And now you go, you're visiting, and you say, we've been praying for you, and we we heard the other day that your uncle had COVID and he passed away. We also heard that you were really close to that uncle. So we started to pray for you about your uncle and your family. We know it must be a very difficult thing you're going through. So we've come tonight to ask you how else can we pray for you?

24:15 How else can we labor before God for you? What would be the most important thing to you? And then you listen. And you hear their response and how their focus is and if their focus is worldly or Christly. And and and you both...

24:31 After that visit... Oh, excuse me. That's the first question. The second question is, you know, as we go in in in the assembly here, we're working through these elder issues and trying to establish it. We wanna ask you to pray for us, and here's how you can pray for us.

24:49 Number one, that we are sensitive to the spirits leading. Number two, that we are persistent in these exercises. Number three, that we are easily broken men. And so we just wanna ask... And you can list some others, but just give them something to do, something to focus on.

25:06 And then the third thing you wanna do during that visit is you wanna kinda see if there's a... Hang on. See if there's an issue that that is bothering them. And you have to be careful how you word it, but here's an example. Now I I know you...

25:26 I know there's been some things that could be potentially bothersome to everyone here, and and and we we we wanna make sure that if it's if it's of the Lord, we wanna make sure that that we hear about it. Now please understand this is not a time for complaint or from riling or or discontent, But it it is a time where we wanna bear these burdens before God. Do you have any of those burdens, those things that are really bothersome to you that we could bear before God for you? And that's trying to get that conversation open a little bit where we're getting a little bit deeper than, yeah, my my dog is sick. Please pray for my dog.

26:13 You know? And so you're just trying to crack that door, but you're setting parameters on it. You're saying we're... We don't wanna get into these other areas which are clearly sin. But if it's a real matter, then let's let's sort of talk about it.

26:27 Enforce confidentiality that is reinforced. That listen, we we don't plan to spread this to anybody. We're gonna pray about it as as a group of men meeting for the spiritual needs of the assembly. We are all under this understanding that confidentiality must be maintained and we'll respect that. You know, when you just give this sort of assurance to the body.

26:48 So that's like step number five. In other words, you're doing the kind of the work of the elder, but you're doing it with proactive boundaries and discussions to put the sheep at rest. As you do that over the year, the sheep kinda have a sense of of of peace. They have a sense of of confidence, and they have a sense of care that they're being cared for. And that's very important.

27:44 Alright. So that's kind of the way with the middle to the middle item of working to pass the baton. While that's going on, you're kinda given these status updates to the body. You're kinda saying, well, we we... We've been meeting, we continue to meet, and make no mistake, we're not just meeting to play video games.

28:04 We are really meeting to to focus on listening to the Lord's direction. And and the Lord seems to be leading us and leading several in a certain direction, and and a few seem that that they're... They don't feel they're ready, so please continue to pray. Give us enough information to show that there's progress in the right direction as you possibly can without creating undue expectations. And as you move forward, when you visit, you'll you'll even be able to ask, do you do you see this brother doing the work of the shepherd?

28:39 Do you see that? And you and you wanna kinda get their their discernment. If they say, well, I don't know if I wanna vote for that guy, then you correct it. You say, well, you know, we're really not voting. We're we're discerning.

28:51 We're we're we're listening to the one who's already made the decision so that we can do his decision. And and if... Maybe maybe you should pray about that some more from that perspective so that we we could all have the mind of Christ on this. And so some of the visitation will be reminding the flock where you're going and and how to go... How to get there.

29:14 And you're... As you communicate that, some of that publicly of how the lord leads seeming... Sees... Seems to be leading, and two brothers or one brother says he feels like he needs to step back and not be part of this elder in waiting group, go ahead and say that publicly. Go ahead and say, brother Andy Morris, for example, he's he's he's working a job change and and he is really unable to to meet with the elders as he feels he should or the elders in waiting as he should.

29:48 So so he's gonna just suspend himself for a little season here. It's an unknown period of time, but it seems as if this is something out of his control, and therefore, we we we wanna respect that. That seems to be the spirit of God's leading. You know, and you just kinda wanna say that as best you can along each step of the way. The body then knows that there is activity and movement in the right direction.

30:14 And then finally, you come to the day when it... It's time to to make that official transaction. And and when that happens, I think you you go ahead, you know, you go ahead and and give the body some some heads up. So one week you may say, well, we've really come to some conclusions after this period of time, and and and we'd like to make that announcement to the body. So next week, we'd like a special meeting at the assembly, and and it's going to be a little different family bible hour for us, and and and we want everybody to be prepared and to be present if at all possible.

30:59 And then that next week, come and this would be led by Roger and Ray. And you say, brothers, we've gone through a long process and before God, we... We've tried to be open books and open consciences and and here's where we think the Lord has us today. And so we would like to... You to know that we think the Lord is is seeming to identify this brother, this brother, this brother, this brother, and instead of instead of just saying, okay, you have the baton today, we're gonna call you to pray with us with...

31:34 Pray for us and with us with them right now, and we're going to do that for a couple of weeks. And that's what we want you to do, pray specifically about these individuals. And after that season of prayer with the body and the Lord confirms it, and you come back and say, what... Say, three, four weeks later, and you say, brothers, sisters, we seem to feel... Or it seems like these brothers are the ones the Lord has identified, and we are officially passing the baton to these brothers.

32:07 And we, Ray and I, are are stepping down, and we submit to their authority as unto Christ, as they are unto God, we are submitting to them. And that that final meeting is sort of like the clincher, and it's the transaction day as it were. Now I wanna I wanna suggest that when you do present, you know, after this sort of narrowing down to the potential ones, when you present them to the body, you're gonna need to say something like this. Now we're gonna pray for these men for the next month and hear their names. And as we do that, you may find that you have questions for these individual men.

32:51 And what we're gonna ask you to do is go talk to them first if you feel that it needs to be talked about. And if you can't resolve it, then we want you to bring it to the elders. That's Ray and I. We want you to bring it to us, and then we will meet together. Because the pattern of the New Testament is that you first deal with your brother, and then if that doesn't work, you take a couple of witnesses.

33:14 Well, we would be those witnesses, but our goal is to see it resolved person to person. And quite honestly, sometimes it's just a misunderstanding. Maybe you had the facts wrong or maybe there is an issue. And so if there's concern on that level, then follow the scripture of what it says and go approach that individual. And if it can't be resolved there, then let's come.

33:40 We'll be as brothers and we'll try to work together on that level. Okay? So you kinda give the... That that moment of... That that these four or five guys, they're they're...

33:51 We really think they're it, but let's pray together for a season. If you have questions, gives the body an opportunity to solve any questions and therefore have a clear conscience. We have found that to be very helpful, very beneficial, and we've also exposed some things when we did that. One guy was... Told us privately he didn't really think this other guy should be in the role that that we had been praying about.

34:20 And we asked him. We said, well, did you go talk to him? He says, oh, no. No. I didn't talk to him.

34:25 We said, well, why not? Well, it's it's not it's not my place. We said, oh, it is your place. You should go talk to him. We waited a few more months, came back to him.

34:36 He said, well, I really don't. I'm not at peace with it. I said, well, did you talk to him? He said, no. We didn't talk to him.

34:41 I didn't go talk to him. I said, now you understand that we have a whole lot of problem with your difference with this brother in the role that he's being considered, and and and you don't even go to the pattern that it takes to to follow through with your concern. So how does that give you credibility? And we actually... I actually said that to him myself.

35:02 I see that that doesn't give you credibility if you don't do the first step of obedience out of the concern you have. And so we were kind of blunt on that and basically said, you can hold the assembly hostage by that posture. And and we've given you a biblical way to solve it. If you're not going to take that way, then we're going to be very careful that the enemy is using you to hold us hostage. And that's that's how we approach that.

35:32 So kind of a little little sidebar there when you get to that impasse. Okay. I bet you didn't sign up for that tonight, Andy, but that's kind of a general skeleton. Is that is that what you're thinking? Is that what you're looking for?

35:47 Okay. Good. Alright. Let let me take some questions because I... I'm sure I've raised some...

35:58 Somebody's dander somewhere. So...

36:21 Should should we... Something like that. You ask each one?

36:25 Yeah. So what... So you have... Other than you two, I think you have five current men currently meeting with you. Right?

36:32 Right. But we would invite others as well.

36:34 Yeah. So I would have a season of prayer with you, seven men, and and and then after that season of prayer, say, well, I think we... The Lord might have us invite this brother to come in here, this brother. And and then you go and you give them an... You you and Ray, you and Roger give them that invitation.

36:54 And you say, we'd like you to pray with us. Now this is not a promise to be in the oversight. It's it's an invitation to pray with us about how the Lord is gonna show us the oversight. You're very clear on that. You have to almost say that to yourself regularly so that our expectations don't get out of out of line.

37:12 Right. And then you invite them and pray. And then that process that I had those, like, five steps in there, which is... We're just only examples. That's what you go through.

37:20 Now Okay. Be careful because some people will think they are elders and they wanna be part of it and they're they're not elders. And so sometimes you you may end up seeing that and you say, well, brother, why don't you why don't you come and meet with us for four weeks and just see if this is really what God has? You know, sometimes you're gonna have these dry runs, if you will, and and and sometimes you'll learn that, oh, wow. It wasn't as I thought.

37:49 You you really have a different, heart underneath that hood. And so don't be afraid to cross that line, but if you... If you're a little concerned about it, have a times... A time stamp on it so that, there can be some moments of resolution. Does that make sense?

38:06 Yes, Jeff. Thank you. You answered my question.

38:09 Very good. Very good.

38:10 Can I ask

38:11 you a question?

38:12 Is that Andy? Is that Andy? Good. Sorry. You just...

38:16 Oh, thank you. Yep.

38:17 You mentioned an example of a guy who had a concern. Sounded like he had a concern about whether he should be an elder or not. Oh, someone else elder or not.

38:26 Right? Somebody else somebody else being in leadership.

38:29 It was like two elders and the elders in waiting group. And one didn't think the other should be an elder. Correct?

38:36 That... That's that's the gist of it. Yes.

38:38 That would work. What's that? That would work. The example would work. Match is exactly...

38:44 Okay. So then

38:48 it sounded like he didn't think he should be an elder, but he didn't... It didn't seem like there was necessarily a conflict that he needed to go to that person to deal with.

39:02 Well, in in our... In the case I was describing to you, I I gave you the cliff notes, but there was a conflict. And the conflict wasn't like, you hurt me and you didn't apologize for it. That's not it. It was a conflict that was...

39:18 Well, I don't I don't think you should be an elder because... Or, yeah, in this case, leadership. I don't think you should be in leadership because, you know, you... You've done this in your life, x, y, and z, or you're single or you're married with no children, how can you justify that? So that was a concern.

39:36 It was a question. Now we agreed that it should be talked about as a group, but this was way more heavy on this one individual, and we strongly urged him to go and talk to the fellow first. There may be more to this scenario than he realizes, and just by gaining more knowledge base of his background, it might solve your question 100. And so that's what we encouraged. And...

40:04 But, otherwise otherwise, the risk is that guy that has the question, he may actually have a secondary agenda a a secondary agenda, which, again, we we hope we don't, but we do sometimes. And and it was a... In in in this case, it was a power play. He was moving for power. And when we asked him to go and talk to the brother, he didn't wanna do that because it would be beneath him because he didn't see that brother as somebody worthy, as a co equal in leadership.

40:34 Therefore, he wouldn't go. And so it exposed a motive. It exposed something. And and that's why I think that suggestion is a nice check-in our spirits about making sure our hearts are are being honest with God about it. Does that make sense to you, Andy?

40:51 It does. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Yeah.

40:54 So so part of these suggestions are designed to make sure that we expose our own hearts. So my heart is really desperately wicked, which means I can lie to you and you would never know it. And I can lie to myself and I would never know it. That's what... That's Satan's main method.

41:10 So as we go through this, part of discernment is being able to put ourselves in positions where we actually have a self examinatory process, and that's what I was trying to explain. Does that make sense? The principle principle is what I wanted you to get.

41:26 Yeah. Yeah. No. I I... I'm getting there.

41:29 Okay. Very good. It's a good question. Thank you, brother.

41:38 Steve, it's Denzel.

41:40 Hey, Denzel.

41:41 I I did a little bit of adding as you're going through there, and I I think you described the 10 plan.

41:55 This guy is good. He's good, man. Oh, I'm sorry about that, bro.

42:06 No. I I I don't wanna sound impatient. I I I just wanna... Maybe you could you could talk to timing or... Sure.

42:17 I know I'm not saying you didn't feel strong about what you said before. I've been... And asking you to recant. I'm just trying to understand how how a timing would go or how how you would know the Lord is leading sooner, later, that type of thing. Sure.

42:34 So Bob, our previous discussion tonight, and what we were kinda talking about not taking too long versus...

42:41 Yeah. There... There's... I mean, there's...

42:42 There seems to be a... We we

42:43 had a conversation earlier and just the the general concept after we prayed a while was we don't wanna be rushing. We certainly don't wanna be impatient, but there seems to be an urgency as well. You know, a feeling of urgency amongst the body. There's feedback, particularly coming to Ray and Roger. And so trying to discern how that path is forward.

43:08 So...

43:08 Right. So let me let me answer your question first by a little bit of a ant... Anecdotal story. We met three men for a year and we prayed. And over that year's time, some flesh was really flushed out.

43:25 And as that happened, it became evident that it was not a good time for those three men to be elders. And then... And so I was fit to be tied. I said, Lord, we're... We've come so far.

43:40 We've invested this time, and and the answer is not yet. And I I I asked the lord about that, and and here's the miracle, Denzel. Three months later, we actually recognized elders, and they weren't the ones that we thought of. And all I can tell you is that God did a real miracle and has no problems at accelerating the recognition process. Through ninety days later, one summer, June or May, I thought it was a done deal.

44:10 We're gonna do it all over again for a year. By the end of the summer, the Lord had three men recognized. Now that process in my mind was very miraculous. So my point that I'm making to you is on the surface, it does look like, wow. This is gonna take more time.

44:28 But in reality, I saw the Lord accelerate the clock infant... Infantestinally. Now back to your question. So what about a timeline? And so I think it's very appropriate to say no, to yourselves and to the flock.

44:47 Now we know that this is an issue that is very much on everyone's heart, and we would like to see it put to bed. We'd like to see our questions answered. But the truth is is that we just don't want a answer. We want the lord's answer. And and it takes a commitment of the entire body to to be ready for that, to wait for that.

45:13 Okay? So you wanna set the expectations of the body. You wanna give them that sense. And that you want the same thing as they want, but our bigger desire is to make sure that what we... What answer we have is the Lord's answer.

45:28 Now that's what I would do publicly. What I do privately with your group is is I would simply say, brothers, let's begin to pray that if this is of the Lord, say, these five brothers, let's ask the Lord to confirm it in such a way that it is unmistakably his hand. And we're gonna ask him to confirm it in terms of these individuals and his timing. Don't be afraid to ask God to make the hard stuff that is, you know, Gideon. I love him, but, you know, who's gonna make the ground wet and the fleece dry and vice versa?

46:07 I mean, that's that's against natural science. Right? So I don't think God was in heaven going, oh, man. I hope he doesn't ask me to do that one. That's too tough.

46:15 You know? So I just say, do it in such a way that I can... I will unmistakably know it was your hand. And so so when we do that, I find the Lord does that. And when he when he does that, it galvanizes the meeting.

46:31 It galvanizes the meeting so that they all say this is the hand of God. To not obey is sin right now. And so that's that's kind of the direction. Now it's... Now the third thing I want you to know is it's very fine to have time stamps of reassessment.

46:47 So we're gonna do this for two months, and then we're gonna go revisit what we just visited and see if the Lord has had... Made made it clear to us. And it's very fine to have those time stamps and and to to have the revisitation process. And that's one of the tools you can use to encourage the body as we wait on the Lord. And and I found that to be very efficient and effective to use that time stamp model.

47:36 I said, now, Lord, I I I need I need some confirmation of what I think the spirit of God wants me to do. And so, now I don't... Don't get me wrong here, but I I would like to see 50 fleeces. Okay? I actually said that.

47:52 I'd like to see 50 fleeces, five zero. Can you do that? Alright? And so, now the Lord... We didn't have handwriting, you know, on the wall, meaning meaning tiki, whatever.

48:05 We had the silence of heaven with a supposed nod of the throne. And over the next... Oh, I'm gonna start crying. Over the next three months, I saw things happen that were totally inexplicable. And one of the most impressive was that the ER where I was working was becoming hostile to my leadership, and, I was director.

48:31 And it was odd because our ER product was outstanding, the best in the city. And so by all rights, the hospital should've been very happy with us. We were providing a tremendous emergency medicine product. Patients were being seen in eighteen minutes. You know?

48:51 You don't get served at the DMV in eighteen minutes. So so we were... We're given a great product. I couldn't figure this out. I'm, god, why is this falling apart?

49:00 And I realized the Lord was was going to drive me out of that position. And so one day, there was an issue as several problems came up, and one was, I needed to meet with the... One of the hospital compliance officers. And, somebody said that I was, being unprofessional in in my explanation of a problem. And so I I met with him, and it turns out that the person who made the complaint was forced to make that complaint by management.

49:34 And so it was... Is now what we call a EEOC violation. So I could've sued the hospital when I actually would've won. But I said, Lord, why is this happening? This is all, you know, extra burdens right now.

49:48 And so I sat down to meet with the compliance officer, and unbeknownst to me, she was an on fire Christian. And so she said, now doctor Price, what do you think about the emergency department? I said, well, you know, I I... This is what I think. And and she goes, well, what are you thinking of doing?

50:05 I said, well, I I don't know. I I think I should probably focus on medical missions. And she go... Blurts out, well, I'm a Christian. I know Jesus Christ as my savior.

50:15 And let me tell you something, doctor Price, you should go serve God and leave this hospital. Hospital. Now at that moment, that was one of my... That was my thirty fifth fleece. It was unmistakable.

50:28 How did she know anything about my life? And why would she say those words? And why would... And she said it, like, three times, like, was looking through me through me, and you should should go go serve God. That's what you should do.

50:41 Leave this place and serve God three times in a matter of five minutes. It's one of those conversations which you would never say it was, you know, angelic or something, but I certainly felt like I was at the Brook Of Jabuk, let me tell you. And and I I lost count after thirty five. I was so riveted by that moment that, it was unmistakable. It was clear.

51:04 It was unplanned. You couldn't you couldn't have conjured that up in anybody's crystal ball. And I said, okay. I'll go. And that's when everything fell...

51:16 Fell into place. So why do I tell you that story? Because, Denzel, I think that's what God would do in your midst too. And you say, no, Lord, we need unmistakable evidence that this is what you're confirming both to this group and to the entire body, and would you provide that for us? We...

51:33 We'd look for you to provide that confirmation. And if you don't provide that confirmation, we're going to assume that this is not what your timing is or your will. So, Lord, let us know. See, that's that's our problem. We think that God is is is not willing to tell us.

51:52 I don't think that's true. I think God is all the willing. He let us know about the seven mysteries of the Bible. I'm pretty sure he's willing. And so I just asked him, and I said...

52:00 And if and if he doesn't answer, I say, like the psalmist, Lord, where are you? You said you... And we asked, and and can you be more clear? Can you help me see what I can't see? And I just I just keep knocking.

52:13 And what I found is that the Lord was very clear. When we recognize those three elders that... After that summer, the entire body took a deep breath and they had peace. That was confirmation to us. They had peace, and I'll never forget that.

52:28 We had peace and they had peace. So, Denzal, I don't know if that answers your question, but I think the answer is don't be afraid to ask the lord to confirm. Number two, don't be afraid to have time stamps where you reconsider the question and answer... Ask it and answer it afresh. And number three,

52:45 I can't remember what it was. That

52:48 that was very helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you.

52:57 Yeah. I I feel badly. I did paint something that sound like a multiyear process, but I I don't think it is. I don't think it has to be.

53:07 Wasn't wasn't number three, don't miss the obvious?

53:11 I'm pretty sure that was it because I missed it.

53:18 Yeah.

53:21 Thanks, Roger. Yeah.

53:24 Hey. I was... Oh, never mind. I'll ask you later.

53:30 Well,

53:53 When we were having problems with leadership, I I may have told you this, but my mother-in-law was praying. She saw the problem. That's a beautiful thing about women. They actually can see the forest for the trees long before we can even see the horizon. And so so, you know, she she was praying and she said, no, lord.

54:11 It just seems like there's a resistance to elders here or there was. And then she began to pray. I never forget this. She said, Steve, I pray that if there's anybody that is not willing to have elders here, that the Lord would take them home in some way. And, that shocked me because we just lost three people.

54:32 I mean, like, graduated to glory. And that shocked me so. And what I realized was just how important it was, for our women to pray. They... That's that's...

54:44 According to first Peter three, that's how they they are able to see the will of God done through a meek and quiet spirit. And it's it's... To be quite frank, it seems like that's even more powerful in some ways, you know, that they're trusting in God who's ruling over Abraham to do the right thing. You know? And and when she told me that, that really reinforced to me the incredible role the women have in this whole process.

55:11 Amen.

55:24 How was your trip to Michigan?

55:27 It was outstanding. Those, young people, they're they're outstanding, and they... They've all finished strong. They finished well. And I I I gave them a message from second Corinthians chapter three.

55:43 You know, it says, you are our document. You are our letter, and the letter that you are is of Christ. And so I said to them, it's not gonna be the diploma on the wall that you get from Tepsy. It's going to be the letter of your soul that is read. That's the document you want people to stop by and look at.

56:04 That's the document that needs to be speak of Jesus Christ and not your accomplishments. Anyway, it was... For me, it was a very moving message. I could give it again, but

56:13 it was it was lovely

56:17 to give that and to look at their faces and their, you know, innocent laborers for God and just say, go be a servant. That's what we want. We used to say go fight when. Say go fight and be humble. Yeah.

56:33 So it was great. We got Patrick home on Sunday night, and we've just been trying to do the four months worth of laundry in his.

56:43 Well,

56:49 brothers, I should talk about a few things in planning. So beginning next Wednesday, I'll be in The Bahamas. Now I know... And I can hear you say it. Oh, sure.

56:59 Save the lord... Serve the lord in The Bahamas. But somebody has to, and I think it's the lord's will for me to be there. Least I volunteered. Okay?

57:09 And and my my point is is I don't know the meeting schedules for the next three Thursdays. But once I get there on Wednesday, I'll be able to find out more information and can talk with you about it. But, generally speaking, they do not have a meeting on Wednesday night, but they usually have something on a Thursday night. So I'll confirm it when I get there, and I was gonna text Andy about it. Okay?

57:38 Alright.

57:39 In terms of our teaching, I I I I would think I'd have... Just for the sake of helping interpersonal unity, I'd have about three more messages, and, and that would kind of be very specific for working together in oversight and as a body. There are a few messages that would be reasonable to consider in Ezekiel and and the Psalm 23 and, Jeremiah, But I'm also wondering, with the permission of you brothers, if that would be a nice subject matter for a weekend conference down the road. So...

58:19 Yeah. Sure.

58:25 I promise I won't wear a tie then.

58:28 I was commissioned to ask you about a a fall weekend, Steve. So...

58:35 Fall weekend. Fall weekend. Okay.

58:39 But maybe that would line up to to do what you're suggesting, you know, an August, September, October type time frame. Okay.

58:48 Okay.

58:50 Do you have a fall conference that you normally do?

58:55 No. We don't. Okay.

59:00 Well, I I have... You try to tell

59:02 us now. I mean... Yeah. Sorry? You don't have to tell us now unless you just know that.

59:10 Right now, it would most likely be best to think about September twenty fourth and twenty fifth.

59:33 You're you're suggesting we are accepting...

59:42 Would would would you mind if we pencil that in and let me make a few checks with my ability to keep missus Wonderful happy.

60:00 Sure. That's fine. We'll pencil it in.

60:02 Okay. Let me give you an alternative date. Wow. It's pretty busy in October. November fifth and sixth would be another date.

60:26 Okay.

60:28 Okay?

60:29 Yeah. Just check with missus Wonderful and let us know.

60:33 Alright. Will do. Will do. Alright.

60:41 You said September twenty fourth and twenty fifth, that's a Friday and Saturday. Is that what you...

60:46 No. I'd come up for the whole weekend. You know...

60:49 That's Sunday. Right.

60:50 Probably that date is not the best one because I... I've committed to be at the chapel teaching the last weekend of each month. So I I need to preserve that after the summer. I apologize. I misspoke.

61:03 K.

61:18 Very, very helpful. Thank you.

61:19 Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

61:21 My pleasure.

61:22 Yeah.

61:22 I I would like to drop everything and just come and see you, but I don't think the Lord's given me that grace right now. So...

61:30 Well, how about if we come we'll come to The Bahamas with you?

61:34 Hey. Now that is a great idea.

61:37 That's some extra money in the account. Yeah.

61:40 There's a conference there, and they've got good food, lovely people.

61:44 Yeah. Yeah.

61:47 Good idea.

61:51 Yes, please.

61:53 Okay. Our gracious heavenly father, we come in the name of the Lord Jesus asking you to just overpower us with the wisdom of God. Father, this is that wisdom that orchestrated everything perfectly to weave in a free will so that it does not wart your plan, but act... You actually use it to augment your strategy. Now who in the world can do that?

62:21 Only you. Just you. Even when those choices are wrong and sinful. And, father, that wisdom, that sort of wisdom astounded Paul and even declared, wow. This wisdom of God is beyond me.

62:39 Well, it's beyond us too. And so what we do is we wanna stop and just ask you to bless this assembly with such wisdom. I pray, take away all flesh from every person in the assembly. No flesh. No sin.

62:56 In the quietness of every soul there, remove all sin so that they each hear the voice of the spirit of God with clarity and the first time. I pray, give them fortitude to obey you. If, father, I know they'll... You're gonna ask them to have faith in this obedience, and it'll be overwhelming. Please, my God, give them grace to obey you no matter the cost or the uncertainty.

63:22 And finally, father, I pray that you would help them have unity. You've given unity, and the unity can be disrupted by Satan's fiery darts. So rebuke the enemy on their behalf so that... And that... And protect them with your row...

63:39 Your rose bushes of protection so that there is no inflammation that can cause infection in the work of God. I pray, father, that you would provide these three things for these beloved people, these saints of God that that just wanna love you and have you in the centerpiece of their souls. And if this is not their desire, then sterilize them so that it is their only desire. Oh, father, I pray for them. This is an answer to my prayer that the bride of Christ would be ready to meet her bridegroom, give souls that would be saved to the Westlake Christian Fellowship.

64:18 Give them baptisms. Give them opportunities to be so busy in the nursery of heaven on this side of eternity that that they are are are just rejoicing, that they have a fraction of the action of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This I pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.